Sticking It To The Man

Submitted by W Lane Startin on Thu, 2007-05-03 10:46.

Supporters of the Iraq situation, which in my humble opinion is the single worst foreign policy blunder committed by the United States since ... probably the XYZ Affair or something like that, like to point out that many people in Muslim countries support terrorist "jihad" and its goals.

I dispute how prevalent that really is, but even if it is true, I wonder how much of that is genuine faith, and how much of it is their way of "sticking it to the man."

There's no question the military presence in Iraq is resented by the average Iraqi who just wants to live a normal, peaceful life. I should stress in the strongest possible terms that this is not the fault of the troops there in any sense. For example, I personally know of one Iraq veteran who tried to interact with the Iraqis and find some common ground, but he was basically ordered not to do that. I suspect there's a lot of that going around.

Today's situation in the Middle East is largely a result of Western foreign policy stupidity over the past 75 years, from the British blundering of the Balfour Declaration, to the CIA overthrow of a democratically elected Iranian government with 1953's "Operation Ajax." In fairness, it's also caused by a strident reluctance throughout the Muslim world to liberalize their governments and societies. Until both of these issues are addressed, no serious progress can be made.

What's past is past, and now we're left with several inescapable conclusions:

-Israel has the right to exist as an independent state. Deal.

-Palestine has the right to exist as an independent state, too. Deal.

-No action by any entity within the United States Government, military or otherwise, can solve this problem.

-The Muslim world has to get serious about fixing itself. This has nothing to do with terrorism, it's a general standard of living issue. I assure you al-Qaeda wouldn't be near as popular if more Muslims enjoyed comfortable lifestyles.

The world does a pretty good job with the first point, but attention to the others is, um, lacking. Meanwhile, the average worker in Iraq or Syria or Saudi Arabia sees the United States interfering (or perhaps more correctly, perceives them as interfering) in their own lives and understandably gets grumpy. Reactions range from the aforementioned desire to "stick it to the man" to suicide bombings.

With these conclusions in mind, withdrawing our troops and revisiting this area with a politically-based agenda based on these inescapable conclusions can only serve to help our standing in this part of the world (not to mention it stops American kids getting killed out there). This is _NOT_ a concession to terrorism in any sense. It's common sense.

Radical wingnuts will still be out there, and they still should be tracked down and brought to justice. Like 99.99% of the free world, I want Osama hunted down, taken in, and his operation shut down permanently. Let's be crystal clear on that. Too bad the administration isn't.

We can't fix this, but we can stop it from becoming worse by not being "the man" so much.

Too simplistic

#3709 On Thu, 2007 05 03 20:15 nonluddite said,

"There's no question the military presence in Iraq is resented by the average Iraqi who just wants to live a normal, peaceful life"

I don't think they are saying "I hate the Americans being here, so I'll go blow up some Shia instead"! There's much deeper reasons, obviously.

"Supporters of the Iraq situation, which in my humble opinion is the single worst foreign policy blunder committed by the United States since ... probably the XYZ Affair or something like that, like to point out that many people in Muslim countries support terrorist "jihad" and its goals"

I'm seriously comflicted with Iraq: I was against the war before it started, but to withdraw now would get 100,000's of people killed in a civil war. Somehow, I envision the Democrats withdrawing, then 1 year later, going back in for humanitarian reasons. Or am I too cynical?

The American Civil Liberties Union—Protecting the Bill of Rights…except for Amendments 2, 9, and 10!--nonluddite

Response

#3711 On Thu, 2007 05 03 20:54 W Lane Startin said,

If a foreign army was in your neighborhood, regardless of the circumstances I'd venture to guess you'd be a bit grumpy too.

As for the civil war, we can either get involved in it or not, because it'll be there either way. At least with the latter option we don't get our own people killed. This can't be solved with the military.

partitioning

#3716 On Fri, 2007 05 04 19:44 nonluddite said,

Ever since we've started this mess in Iraq (the current one at least), I've said that we should partition the country between the three factions and only police the borders. By dismantling the central government and devolving power, there would be less to fight over, and separating the vast majority of each faction (except for mixed neighborhoods) there would be fewer scapegoats to fight as well. If they wanted to fight themselves to vie for what power (or oil) there was, fine--they won't be fighting up (except Al Qaida) and they won't drag down the whole country like what is happening now.

The American Civil Liberties Union—Protecting the Bill of Rights…except for Amendments 2, 9, and 10!--nonluddite

what about the black gold?

#3720 On Sat, 2007 05 05 01:52 Qj said,

I agree, that partitioning would be best. Especially for the Kurds. However, I do see one major problem, that is the dividing up the oil revenue. I don't see the Iraqi Shias or the Iraqi Sunnis wanting to share any of the oil money pie. In my opinion, the civil war that is happening there now is about who has 100% power over the oil.

Easy money

#3727 On Mon, 2007 05 07 11:14 nonluddite said,

I'm afraid that the Sunnis in the middle of the country wouldn't have much oil at all. They would have oil pipelines to charge fees, and the largest tax base (Baghdad), but no easy money--it's probably better for them in the long run (see every other country that has significant oil exports).

Again, if there was no centralized government, the Sunnis wouldn't be fighting for control over it.

The American Civil Liberties Union—Protecting the Bill of Rights…except for Amendments 2, 9, and 10!--nonluddite

Intruiguing ...

#3719 On Fri, 2007 05 04 22:06 W Lane Startin said,

There is a pretty good argument for an independent Kurdistan, at the very least. I'd be willing to put that on the table.