Back from the dead.

Submitted by Paige_Michael-S... on Wed, 2008-04-09 21:15.

After months of hiatus from my blog, I'm back, and it with me. Check out my latest post, where I refute Kos's "Libertarian Dem" article.

http://libertyrepublicans.blogspot.com/

A Couple of Points...

#6251 On Wed, 2008 04 09 23:45 ka1igu1a said,

You wrote:

Fourthly, this argument confuses libertarianism for anarchism. Libertarianism advocates for the existence of government and the limit of its power to preventing coercion of individual liberty, protecting property rights, and enforcing contracts. Anarchists advocate for no government. There is a huge difference, and realizing this difference invalidates many of the criticisms of the mainstream libertarian framework brought up by Kos and others.

There are actually many anarchist strains of "libertarianism," and if one were to adhere to a strict definition, there would be a valid argument to expel any advocacy of the State(whether limited or minarchist) from libertarian theory. In general, anarchists do not advocate "no government," rather the argument is against "government" in the form of The State. That is, enforcement mechanisms one subscribes oneself to be done voluntarily with the right to secede from such.

Kos wasn't arguing against the anarchist version of libertarianism but the "minarchist" one. His argument boiled down to that government needed to be big enough to constrain corporate power and corporate monopoly and that government needed to provide a social safety net. Other than that, he was down with being a libertarian. My primary argument with Kos concerned the first point, not the second point per se. It is theoretically predictable and empirically verifiable that a strong centralized government power is an enabler of Corporate power, if "the corporation' is a part of the state's legal framework. For example,Kos argued in his original essay that government was needed to protect the citizen's privacy against the corporation, which in itself seems strange given that it's private data being tied compulsorily to a Government ID (SS#) that largely generates the threat to begin with. And, I imagine even kos had to realize the irony of his thesis after spending the better part of this year ranting on his blog against government granting immunity to corporations from private lawsuits as a result of the corporations(at the behest of the government) violating their customer's privacy rights.

The government constraints corporate power...

#6253 On Thu, 2008 04 10 01:06 Paige_Michael-S... said,

Through the mechanisms I described characterizing a libertarian vision of government.

I would not at all characterize support for socialized medicine, income taxation, draconian "climate change" measures, "government-business partnerships," or "social safety nets" as libertarian positions.

In my mind the work of Anthony De Jasay

#6254 On Thu, 2008 04 10 05:17 ka1igu1a said,

has pretty much demolished the validity of the "minarchist" libertarianism. De Jasay's rational choice methodology, or even an alternative framework, Libertarian Class Theory, make(s) it difficult to maintain adherence to the any statist organization if you are a libertarian.

I would not at all characterize support for socialized medicine, income taxation, draconian "climate change" measures, "government-business partnerships," or "social safety nets" as libertarian positions.

Neither would I. If you are referring to me not going after kos on the social safety net issue, it's because libertarian theory, especially the left-libertarian variety, allows for collecting rent on land use and natural resource use to then distribute collectively to the community. In that sense, there is a type of a "social income." There's more fertile ground in attacking Kos in his belief that centralized government power is a constraining force against corporatism.

btw, welcome back!

Libertarianism, Minarchism, and Anarchism

#6257 On Thu, 2008 04 10 11:09 FreedomDemocrats said,

Taking the approach of libertarianism being a modern development of classical liberalism, I think it's clear that its philosophical foundation is "statist," in contrast to an anarchist desire for a society without a state (but still the possibility of governing entities based on free association and mutual aid).

A minarchist libertarianism would envision a state with less of a role than the classical liberals. The question is if the natural progression of libertarian ideology is to reach a point where statism itself is no longer a viable position.

That is, once you start off on the road of libertarianism, do all roads lead to anarchism, and it's just some people stop along the way.

Although some could argue that governing entities based on the administration of territorial regions in an anarchist society would become states.

The one issue I have left with anarchy

#6258 On Thu, 2008 04 10 12:37 b psycho said,

Realistically speaking, the term "anarchy" itself is really a misnomer. By nature, there'll be some form of order, as there must be. The point of anarchy isn't a total lack of order (which is impossible anyway), merely that force isn't an option for maintaining it. A more accurate term would be Panarchy (for "many orders"), since in principle it'd result in separate groups that each live only under rules that everyone in that group agrees with -- since statism boils down to "disagreement must be crushed" at its essence. However, if one group finds some reason to challenge another (there shouldn't be, but people aren't perfect...), force ends up necessary for self-defense. I don't think it makes one some kind of sellout to assume in that kind of scenario people would be asking "now what?".

This would be why despite my admitted radical end-state view I take a long run approach more friendly to gradualism than most. I think we have to learn to operate as if the State doesn't exist before it can actually not, and do not dismiss improvement between this point and that end. The more I think about it, the less "it has to get worse before it gets better" makes sense to me anymore.

Counter-Economics

#6263 On Fri, 2008 04 11 09:30 ka1igu1a said,

nm

The libertarian train analogy...

#6261 On Fri, 2008 04 11 08:45 ka1igu1a said,

is usually not well-received by libertarian anarchists. Charles Johnson at radgeek had a post about that a few months ago but he was merely echoing what the likes of Konkin had previously expressed on numerous occasions.

In terms of anarchist organizations eventually devolving(or evolving, based on your point of view!) into Statist organizations, that's the MAIN THEORETICAL QUANDARY of market anarchist theory, as far as I am concerned. What is the "organizational entropy" limit of anarchist organizations. I imagine it's a function of of technology(information) and scarcity. Therefore, in "IT Space," you can see why "anarchy" works, but anarchist organizations may not, at least yet, be stable when it comes to land and natural resources. Therefore, it is likely that anarchists need to embrace bio-technology and nanotechnology, IMHO.

Geeze.... what about me?

#6259 On Thu, 2008 04 10 14:58 Paige_Michael-S... said,

Aren't you all glad to have me back? ;)

I am . . .

#6262 On Fri, 2008 04 11 08:50 FreedomDemocrats said,

Get my message?

Just responded.

#6265 On Fri, 2008 04 11 14:06 Paige_Michael-S... said,

^^^