Ron Paul on General Election Ballot in MT, LA

Submitted by W Lane Startin on Mon, 2008-09-08 15:18.

Politics1 reports that Ron Paul will be on the general election ballot in two states, Montana and Louisiana. In Montana at least, this brings up a couple very intriguing points.

First, in Montana Paul has been given the ballot line of the profoundly theocratic and un-libertarian Constitution Party. The Constitution Party of Montana dumped the national party's presidential nominee, Chuck Baldwin, in favor of Paul due largely to a dispute with the national organization over abortion. To wit, Montana Constitutionalists don't think their national party favors criminalizing abortion strongly enough.

In Louisiana, Paul is the nominee of an apparently independent organization called the "Taxpayers Party." Perhaps not coincidentally, the Constitution Party was known as the US Taxpayers Party until 1999.

What's more, Paul has at least tacitly given these folks in Montana and Louisiana his blessing to do this. It's just another argument that Paul is a half-libertarian at best who has no real interest in civil liberties. This is even more puzzling considering Paul had more than ample opportunity to secure the nationwide LP nomination. All he needed to do to convince Libertarians to brush aside Bob Barr and Wayne Allyn Root was make a couple phone calls before the convention.

But as we all know in politics, perception is reality. It's worth noting that in libertarian-minded Montana, Paul beat John McCain in the 5 February GOP caucus. I believe is entirely reasonable to assume Paul would draw a few libertarian and conservative votes in Montana that would otherwise go to McCain. Given the fact Montana is very much a swing state, a halfway decent Paul protest vote would be more than enough to give Obama a plurality win in Montana, and the state's electoral votes to boot.

Sure, Montana only has three electoral votes, but if the election goes down to the wire any state could be the difference. Quite in spite of himself, Ron Paul may be doing Democrats a huge favor.

Lane, yes Paul may be 50% but the Dem Establishment is a Zero

#6714 On Tue, 2008 09 09 05:37 ka1igu1a said,

Yes, I have been a harsh critic of Paul's inconsistencies when it comes to social conservatism but how does any libertarian excuse Obama going on Fox News and proclaiming the "surge" to be a success beyond anyone's wildest dreams. There is no excuse for that. None. Absolutely none.

Frankly, it's hard for me after watching Paul's impassioned ant-war speech and anti-drug war speech, and the extent of the radical libertarianism expressed at his Rally for the Republic, for me to get that worked up about about him being on the Montana ballot. The fact is, Joe Biden going on Meet the Press and saying life begins at conception according to the Catholic Church set back pro-abortion rights much more than Paul being on the ballot in Montana ever could.

Speeches aside

#6717 On Tue, 2008 09 09 10:03 W Lane Startin said,

No one claims Obama or Biden are libertarians. Surely, no one portrays them as the great shining light of libertarianism as Ron Paul is portrayed.

If Paul had any sense of principle whatsoever, why would he give a speech like that and then less than a week later accept a nomination from an organization diametrically opposed to the ideals in that speech? It just shows where his true feelings lie.

Ron Paul is fundamentally an ultra-conservative with a few libertarian tendencies. If that was the way he presented himself, it wouldn't be that big a deal. He's certainly not a libertarian at heart, and for anyone (especially him) to claim otherwise is a fraud and a sham. He really does give the term "libertarian" a bad name. Frankly the sooner he goes away, the better off we as classical liberals all are.

Show Me

#6719 On Tue, 2008 09 09 12:59 Zeke said,

"Ron Paul is fundamentally an ultra-conservative."

Paul is a antifederalists that believes that the federal government is trampling over state rights. How's that ultraconservative? His voting record has been over 90% libertarian. It doesn't get better than that.

"States Rights" is a smokescreen

#6720 On Tue, 2008 09 09 13:35 W Lane Startin said,

Regardless of whether its the federal or state government that enacts it, bad legislation is still bad legislation. Saying the federal government has no business restricting choice, but then turning around and encouraging said restrictions at the state level is quite cynical indeed. Paul is trying to have it both ways by saying he's against this that and other at the federal level, 10th Amendment blah blah blah, and then placates the Religious Right by encouraging their agenda at the state level. When all is said and done, the means justify the ends and the ends are those of ultra-conservatives.

This is not to say the 10th Amendment is without merit, but it still demonstrates a very callous disregard for civil liberties in general.

Straining Gnats on Paul

#6721 On Tue, 2008 09 09 14:51 Zeke said,

Your analysis is reaching. The Religious Right doesn't have much influence on the American People. Even in their heyday they couldn't overturn Roe vs Wade. You are giving them too much credit. MSM hysteria make them larger than what they are.

In the US, every vice known to man can be patronized. We have State ran & regulated gambling, lottery, smoking, drinking, porno, and in a one state, prostitution. Most of these are restricted by age and location, but we have them. To think that Paul, which I doubt, and the Religious Right, which I seriously doubt, have juice to do away with these is laughable. The American people are not socially conservative per say. They just don't want these vices being practiced in their neighborhoods and they don't want their tax dollars funding it either. Restricting these behaviors to redlight districts is pretty much favored by most,IMO. I find it amusing that in the eyes of the world, we are nasty, violent, drunk, high, money hungry, perverted sex freaks.

The Federal government and its federal laws are the egregious one that is violating civil liberties more. For example, in California medical marijuana is legal by state law. However, subscribers are arrested for possession by the feds.

Paul's biggest problem is his communication, He's not a polished speaker like a lot of other politicians. But his politics is more libertarian than most inside the beltway today. That's a known fact. So much so that the RNC blackballed him and won't let him play in the Republican Party reindeer games. He's pretty much shunned by conservatives and republicans.

Libertarian is not Liberal

#6722 On Tue, 2008 09 09 15:38 spaceman kermit said,

"He really does give the term "Libertarian" a bad name"

You do realize "Libertarian" and "Liberal" are different terms right? From your argument, it sounds as if you think they are the same thing. They are both philosophies, and they both start with "Liber" but that is really where the comparisons end. One could call Libertarianism "ultra-conservative", in the sense that libertarians believe in the basics of liberty, which were defined in the Constitution. I am not sure Libertarianism aspires to any one specific branch of conservativism, but I know Ron Paul is a "constitutional conservative". By comparison, the current president is "neo-conservative", of which Libertarianism is not at all affiliated.

The basics of Libertarianism are: "Property rights, and non-aggression". You can do whatever you like as long as it does not cause physical harm to someone else. Almost everything Libertarians believe can be based on this ethos.

I challenge anybody to apply this philosophy to his or her everyday life and then decide for yourself.

didn't liberals invent property?

#6728 On Tue, 2008 09 09 21:14 adam ricketson said,

When I think of classical liberals (Paine, Locke), the three things stand out about them are:

  • Inalienable rights (such as your own body)
  • Property rights
  • Democratic government 
How different is that from libertarianism, as you understand it? Sure, modern libertarians don't make a fetish out of democratic government in the same way that some of the classical liberals did, but the vast majority of libertarians say that democratic government is better than alternative governmental structures.

Lane, this is patently absurd.

#6736 On Wed, 2008 09 10 22:18 Paige_Michael-S... said,

Firstly, Dr. Paul agreeing to allow these parties to put his name on the ballot is absolutely NO evidence that he supports their. This is a huge logical leap. One could infer from this move- and believably- that he just doesn't want to dictate to people what to do. One could also say this is the same reason why he's not endorsing a candidate outright in this election.

Secondly, how in the world is the claim that Dr. Paul is a libertarian a "fraud?" He has stated time and again that the only two issues with which he disagrees with the Libertarian Party platform are Immigration and Abortion. His voting record does everything to confirm this. Maybe you think that disagreeing with the Libertarian Party platform on a whopping total of two issues is enough to disqualify someone as a libertarian, but I don't. The idea that he is an "ultra social conservative" is nonsense, at least from the perspective of the policies he would look to institute. His on-the-record support for the legalization drugs and prostitution, for same-sex civil unions, and for the legality of gambling all dispel that notion outright, and he voiced support for all of these DURING THE REPUBLICAN PRIMARY, AT A TIME WHEN VOICING THESE OPINIONS IS QUITE POLITICALLY DISADVANTAGEOUS.

As for Dr. Paul's record on civil liberties and Bill of Rights issues (i.e. Patriot Act, Real ID, etc.), his voting record speaks for itself. He campaigned fiercely on these issues, and he thought enough of them to include them on the list of four issues in his pledge for candidates to sign in order to get his blessing.

And when has he ever "encouraged the Religious Right's agenda at the state level" other than on the issue of abortion? He stated point blank in an interview with Jon Stossel that he believes same-sex civil unions should be allowed and that drugs and prostitution should be legal. When Dr. Paul has implied he would "regulate" things like drugs or prostitution at the state level, he has put it in the context of setting a threshold age for accessing them, i.e. age at which someone can purchase alcohol, cigarettes, drugs, etc.. I have to confess to not being all that terribly offended by this.

Is he wrong on immigration? Yes. Does he take federalism and "states rights" too far from the perspective of federal government policy rather than adopting more stances grounded in the 14th Amendment? Absolutely. But that doesn't mean he's not legitimately a libertarian, because in my view at least, he certainly is. And this view is shared by the scores of Libertarian Party activists, officials, and past candidates who supported his campaign.

By continuing this effort, you are alienating libertarians like myself who supported Ron Paul's campaign vigorously and who view him as a hero. I would like to work with people like you to produce the society we both want to see, but on a personal level, you make it really difficult.

Let the hero worship go

#6740 On Thu, 2008 09 11 00:49 W Lane Startin said,

Paul's rhetoric is very consistent in arguing the federal government should remain silent on civil liberties, advocating instead such things should be decided at the state level. But in practice he's not always true to that. In 2003 he voted yes on the Partial-Birth Abortion Ban Act but three years later wrote, "the federal government has no authority whatsoever to involve itself in the abortion issue."

He's said repeatedly that he supports leaving the marriage issue up to the states, yet is on record as supporting the Defense of Marriage Act. He's also co-sponsored legislation prohibiting lawsuits pertaining to its constitutionality.

In 2007 he said Don't Ask Don't Tell is a "decent policy," but when pressed later he said he wouldn't discharge openly homosexual military personnel provided their behavior wasn't disruptive.

On issues where he is more consistent, his M.O. seems to be to hide behind the 10th Amendment at the federal level and then look the other way when states start infringing on people's private lives. I contend that just because a state can pass bad legislation and still remain constitutional doesn't mean it should.

For a strict constitutionalist, he's not been shy about proposing constitutional amendments, including three that would significantly alter or repeal existing amendments, one allowing for school prayer, and one for giving states the power to prohibit the destruction of the flag. That's no less than five proposed amendments since he returned to Congress 11 years ago. The Constitution has only been amended 27 times in 200+ years. There's a good reason why. I think you'd be very hard-pressed to find anyone in either party who's proposed more in the same time period.

In short, what I see is a pretty consistent tendency on his part to try to have things both ways. That doesn't sit well with me at all. This is a guy who in 2007 requested $400 million in earmarks, voted against them, and got them passed anyway.

I find several other stances of his quite troubling. He's opposed the Voting Rights Act, the Civil Rights Act, advocated the repeal of the 17th Amendment allowing for direct election of U.S. Senators, opposed the repeal of the Electoral College (which would allow for direct election of the President), voted to build a fence on the Mexican border, and has written the "notion of a rigid separation between church and state has no basis in either the text of the Constitution or the writings of our Founding Fathers."

He's also incorrectly stated the Declaration of Independence and Constitution are "both replete with references to God." As one who takes the Constitution so seriously, he should know there are exactly zero references to God in it. There are three in the Declaration of Independence, "Nature's God," "Creator," and "Supreme Judge" respectively. Paul should also be well aware the Declaration of Independence is a document written by an ardent Deist that has profound historical significance, but also no legal standing.

Ron Paul isn't all bad. He indeed has good positions on Iraq, the Patriot Act, REAL ID and other things, but so do quite a few others; he's certainly not unique in that regard. He's not the last best hope for liberty. Not even close.

A lot of people see right through him. If he was more consistent about less intrusive government regulation across the board he would have done a lot better than he did. Indeed, what support he did get came in no small part from ultra-conservative factions, not people who are in my view libertarians. That was definitely the case here in Idaho. Whether he likes it or not, in this state at least he's joined to the hip with the far right. I don't know about you, but that's not what I'm about at all.

So much to refute...so little time.

#6772 On Fri, 2008 09 19 20:30 antistatist said,

Wow, this is like a word for word transcript from Ron Paul's Meet the Press interview with Tim Russert. Perhaps you should watch it and actually listen to Ron Paul's answers.

A couple of quick points.

1. Ron Paul is what I would describe as a Constitutionalist Libertarian. He does not describe himself as a libertarian. If you don't understand that by now I don't think there's much hope. He is very much a constitutionalist but lucky for you, his vision of the US is one where the fed. gov. has very little power, and thus if he were president he would not be able to impose his version of morality on someone like you. But he also would not be able to prevent the states from passing their own constitutional laws. And that's perfectly constitutional.
2. He voted against the Defense of Marriage Act.
3. It's perfectly constitutional to amend the constitution!!!!
4. He's anti-abortion, and that's a position that is perfectly consistent with libertarianism's non-aggression principle. Roe vs. Wade is unconstitutional, thus it's quite fair for him to have voted yes for the Partial Birth Abortion Ban.
5. Hmm, so you think that he just leave all the tax money his constituents have paid in DC? (FYI, it's liberals who hate earmarks.)
6. I don't know much about it, but direct election of senators is not a good thing.
7. The Civil Rights act is one of those groups rights issues...definitely not libertarian.
8. He has said repeatedly that he does not think that the fence was a good idea, but he supported the rest of that bill.
9. He's written about why he supports the electoral college process...look it up.
10. He's correct on the separation of church and state issue.
11. So Jefferson was a deist...big deal.

Your biggest beef appears to be the fact that he's anti-abortion. That does not make him anti-freedom.

Maybe you should actually do some research before spouting off all of these over worn, tired accusations thrown at him by liberals. There's a great website called ronpaullibrary.com. Perhaps you should pay it a visit.