Kinsella on the Chicago Sit-in: "Shoot 'em"

Submitted by ka1igu1a on Tue, 2008-12-09 03:46.

Adam, in his post below, speculated that recent events such as the Chicago Sit-in would provide "fodder" for a heated debate between the left and right elements of the libertarian movement. He was right. Jeremy and Niccolo over at LeftLibertarian.org, for example, laud such tactics being employed by the labor movement while the likes of Stephan Kinsella over at LRC derides the workers as Vandarchists that more or less deserve to be shot.

Now from my understanding of events, there is no "looting" going on, the only "crime" here being trespassing. However, there is apparently a legitimate claim by workers for unpaid wages, so there is a legitimate dispute to be resolved here. I'm not sure how this can be conflated with something like the LA riots, but that's exactly what Kinsella does by linking to this previous post that he wrote invoking the Paleo version of Rothbard.

Of course, when invoking Rothbard, it should be pointed put the the New Left version of Rothbard had a slightly different take on such matters than his later paleo counterpart. It goes without saying that if you are going to invoke the Paleo Rothbard from that period then you are also dredging up the ancillary sludge of the Ron Paul Newsletters, which, apparently were written by Casper the Ghost, because no one stepped up to claim authorship when the content of those newsletters hit the light of day.

It goes without saying that I am not particularly sympathetic to the marriage of paleo conservatism and anarcho-captitalism, which the likes of Kinsella represents to a "T." I'm especially not sympathetic to the notion that self-ownership is derivative to the Homesteading Principle. Self-ownership does not need to derived, it's the fundamental precept of liberty. It's essential justification can be established by a simple appeal to the consequences if it were assumed not be true. Case closed.

According to Kinsella's ethics, if the owners of the means of production stiff workers out of the fruits of their labor, and such workers trespass to peacefully protest, not to loot or vandalize, hey, just hire XYZ Enforcement, Inc. to mow them down. It's an ridiculous position to hold. In a peaceful, anarchist society, this is a perfect example of the type of coordination problems that have to be resolved. They are not a priori assumed to be solved by the necessity of appeals to "Hans-Hermann Hoppe Argumentation Ethics."

Personally, I have come to the conclusion that libertarianism is incompatible with any notion of the State, thusly, implying anarchism. In terms of anarchism itself, specifically what flavor of anarchism, I would recommend the following 3 essays:

Resolving Anarchist Conflict
Anarchy-an Abused Concept
Anarchism Left and Right

In other words, if we assume conditions of free association and voluntary exchange, there is no ONE, PRECONCEIVED NECESSARY WAY TO COORDINATE COOPERATION. This fact is supported by examining social bargaining games in game theory, given that there is generally no unique Nash equilibrium in such games, i.e., there are many Nash Equilibria where no strategic advantage can be gained from unilateral action. In other words, there is no unique solution to the coordination problem.

In our age of instantaneous global communication(where Kinsella's unilateral "libertarian justice" would likely be re-broadcast globally), you might wonder if XYZ, Enforcement, Inc. would tell the likes of Kinsella to go take a hike. After all, there would be no State to shield XYZ Enforcement, Inc, nor the plant owners, from the targeted retribution likely to result from such a global outrage.

The "Homesteading Principle"

#6959 On Tue, 2008 12 09 11:22 neuralnoise said,

The "Homesteading Principle" is itself hardly a principle but a weak and silly rationalization employed to shove the square peg of resource monopolization into the round hole of liberty.

I harvested an apple from this tree last summer! Therefore my descendants own this piece of the earth in perpetuity!

weakness of the homesteading principle

#6961 On Tue, 2008 12 09 20:02 Tangeng said,

I don't like the homesteading principle mostly because of there are the thresholds of labor and time required for establishing different levels of ownership. While a hunter might stalk and kill game on the free range and then claim the carcass of the animal as his own personal property, mining and resource extraction requires the construction of mines and transportation infrastructure, and farming would require improvements to improve agricultural yields. There are other ambiguities on which threshold of investment transfers ownership from one individual to another.

On the other hand, squatting and homesteading historically have been the best and most organic way for poor societies to develop into prosperous communities. Certainly, squatters are in clear violation of existing property rights in that they are trespassing on a negligent or unsuspecting owner. Perhaps, they are allowed to use the property in good faith that squatters would not destroy or damage it. In the end, there has to be some respect for existing property rights.

And then there's the issue of resource monopolization. I don't think anyone can really say that they are responsible for the minerals on their lands. The idea of owning the mineral rights for the land through the homesteading principle doesn't make sense. Construction of irrigation systems and farm plots or the construction of housing and lodging would give someone surface rights but hardly the rights to all the wealth embedded underneath the ground.

Yes, the Homesteading Principle

#6960 On Tue, 2008 12 09 19:46 bradspangler said,

The problem with your argument, neuralnoise, is that you're using a reductio ad absurdum on an aspect of a broader theory that posits its usefulness only in applications where it wouldn't be absurd. More specifically, showing the picking of a single apple as a self-evidently absurd case only indicates this particular example of occupancy/use (i.e. "homesteading) doesn't rise to a level of significance sufficient to establish a property right. It doesn't invalidate the principle any more than one cracker not being enough to stop you from starving would invalidate the concept of eating food to avoid starving. If it's an absurd example, it would be of no use to arbitrators seeking to settle disputes. Clearly there ARE instances in which occupancy/use would establish what a reasonable person would recognize as ownership. The only question is where said threshold might be in particular cases or wioth regard to particular tpyes of property or particular homesteading methods. With regard to these specifics, it's up to claimants to make property claims, disputants to dispute them and arbitrators to arbitrate them. As time goes on, standards will emerge.

Brad Spangler
---
Agorism: Revolutionary Market Anarchism
http://agorism.info/

rejecting the assumptions

#6982 On Fri, 2008 12 12 12:24 neuralnoise said,

"Clearly there ARE instances in which occupancy/use would establish what a reasonable person would recognize as ownership."

I don't see what makes that "clear" at all. Right-wing libertarians need it to be clear because everything they believe in falls apart without it, but needing something to be clear and it actually being clear are not the same thing.

Of course, "respected right to use without interference" is an entirely different matter than "ownership", and societies can certainly organize in such a way as to create a positive right to the former without the absurd and tortured rationalizations it takes to pretend there's a natural right to the latter.

Kinsella has just completely

#6962 On Wed, 2008 12 10 04:14 scumble said,

Kinsella has just completely failed to distinguish between non-violent and violent action. Again. I find it odd that so many libertarians hold to this idea that unions are necessarily violent regardless of the actual evidence.

minimum required force

#6966 On Wed, 2008 12 10 19:25 adam ricketson said,

just hire XYZ Enforcement, Inc. to mow them down.

While Kinsella does seem to have some strange ideas arising from his property fetish, I'll come to his defense on this one issue. Presumably, any enforcement agency (and their client, typically) would want to resolve the dispute in the calmest manner possible. While a situation like this could devolve into an all-out battle, it will probably begin with a show of force, to be followed by a siege of sorts (cutting off electricity, food, and water supplies), and finished with crowd-dispersal tactics (tear-gas, and a charge by armored, baton-weilding foot soldiers) -- you know, the Waco model.

The only reason to start off with the machine gun is if you don't have the overwhelming force to sustain a siege.

There are two issues here (who is right?; how do we protect/enforce rights?), and we don't need to merge them. They only reason to suspect that Kinsella would be so excessive is his absolutism in defense of the rightousness of existing property, even in the face ambiguities that arise when applying theories of just property to the real world. (he also uses the rhetoric of excessive force--but I think he's just doing that to emphasize his absolute self confidence)

Looks like the dispute is on the verge of being settled...

#6969 On Thu, 2008 12 11 02:27 ka1igu1a said,

BOA sides with disgruntled workers

The two issues are at the heart of the type of coordination problems that confront market anarchist theory. The "Waco Model" would only apply as a possible defense mechanism employed by property owners against a gang of looters (i.e, those who have no legitimate claim). However, employing a "Waco Strategy" to resolve disputes that originally resulted from a unilateral action(in this case, stiffing workers of the fruits of their labor) is not solving the coordination problem. Firms that engaged in such unilateral practices would virtually guarantee that labor WOULD become unionized, which would be the rational strategy to "enforce" cooperation and coordination(the coordination problem is solved when there is no strategic advantage gained by unilateral action, meaning that unilateral action by one party either results in mutual losses(or gains) by both parties).

future looking strategies

#6972 On Thu, 2008 12 11 14:46 Tangeng said,

In the end, bargaining strategies aren't all about getting the most out the present situation. A lot of the negotiation strategy is setting up basis for future cooperation or preemption of future conflict. A lot of foresight is require to so that a firm or individual has solid ground to tread upon and isn't immediately confronted by another crisis.

The WACO strategy of stiffing workers would unionize present workers into a defensive alliance for a standoff and would dissuade workers from ever working for such a firm or firms with this group of management in the future. All in all it's a bad idea. The management has to balance their capability to pay the workers and the their obligations to the workers. Otherwise, they are just setting themselves up to fail in their next job.

political decision by BoA?

#6974 On Fri, 2008 12 12 00:31 adam ricketson said,

Any idea on why BoA would take responsibility for the employer's obligation to these workers? Might it make the liquidation go more smoothly and allow the bank to recover more money? As a PR move, is it just to keep a good reputation with their customers, or is it to make sure that the Obama administration is willing to give them additional bailout money?

avoid resorting to force

#6975 On Fri, 2008 12 12 00:52 adam ricketson said,

So, you seem to be saying that any decision by the property owners to forcefully evict the workers would be a big mistake -- at least without a prolonged negotiation that allows the owners to present themselves to the public as reasonable and the workers as unreasonable.

In cases where there are legitimate claims...

#6978 On Fri, 2008 12 12 03:25 ka1igu1a said,

nm

Kinsella says there was no legitimate claim

#6980 On Fri, 2008 12 12 04:48 adam ricketson said,

If you look at "update 2" (response to Brad Spangler), Kinsella argues that there is no legitimate claim by the workers--that the severance payments are required by law, not by contract. In his book, that isn't legitimate.

Your comments about cooperation makes it seem as though "legitimacy" would be determined by community norms, not a particular ideology.

the sit in is resolved

#6967 On Thu, 2008 12 11 01:15 adam ricketson said,

http://www.reuters.com/article/topNews/idUSTRE4B961020081211

Laid-off workers whose sit-in at their closed factory came to symbolize Main Street's resentment of the Wall Street bailout accepted a settlement on Wednesday that provides them the severance they asked for and two months health care coverage, the parties involved said.

Kinsella argues that he is not "paleo"

#6973 On Fri, 2008 12 12 00:29 adam ricketson said,

Kinsella takes offence to being called "paleo", and makes a half-decent case that he isn't. At least, he doesn't seem to have the cultural baggage of paleos (except maybe that obsession with technicalities of the Constitution, such as whether certian amendments are legit). I'd say his reasoning style seems related to the anarcho-capitalists, though I have no idea of whether his conclusions are like theirs.

He also claims that he never even implied that the workers should be shot -- well, he kinda did. At least, he strongly suggested that it is legitimate to use force against them (perhaps the Waco model, above), and implied that they are despicable people. Still, I think this article exaggerates his position....

...actually, upon reading his essay on crime and punishment, he does seem to have an excessive sense of what is an appropriate response to (property) crime. It is especially excessive given how weak his justification for property is.

Along the same lines, a property aggressor, such as a thief, may be dealt with any number of ways. The victim may satisfy himself solely out of the aggressor’s property, if this is possible, or through corporal punishment of the aggressor, if this better satisfies the victim (as discussed in further detail below). In short, any rights or combinations of rights of an aggressor may be ignored by a victim in punishing the aggressor (implying that the aggressor actually does not have these purported “rights”), as long as general bounds of proportionality are considered.

 

From Kinsella's own Bio

#6977 On Fri, 2008 12 12 03:24 ka1igu1a said,

Libertarian Bio

This led me to veer more towards libertarianism, and then to anarcho-capitalism. Later I began to put more emphasis on Austrian economics and paleolibertarian insights of Rothbard, Hans-Hermann Hoppe, and Rockwell.

Here's a nice exchange detailing
Kinsella's agreement with some of Hoppe's more controversial views

In terms of "shooting workers," he called them "vandarchists" and then linked to post quoting Rothbard what the appropriate punishment should be for them. I leave it up to the objective reader if his post didn't convey an implication that they could justifiably be shot as punishment.

does this guy have a split personality?

#6979 On Fri, 2008 12 12 04:41 adam ricketson said,

Wow. As of 2006 his latest phase was "paleo". How could he consider that label bizzare?

For what it's worth, I fully agree that he did open himself to misinterpretation by equating the workers with vandals, and pulling out that "shoot them" quote. I tried to say that in the previous message, but I dropped a relative clause in an ambiguous situation.

restitution

#6983 On Fri, 2008 12 12 12:27 nskinsella said,

See my article here: http://www.mises.org/journals/qjae/pdf/Qjae2_4_4.pdf
I am in favor of restitution:

One interesting argument that Barnett makes, with regard to enforcement
error and abuse, is that all criminal justice should be restitutive, not punitive or
retributive. As I have argued elsewhere,30 I believe Barnett is mistaken that retribution
(punishment) violates the rights of (actually guilty) aggressors.31 However, in
keeping with his consequentialist approach which avoids questions of justification
of fundamental norms, Barnett does not pretend to make a strong theoretical case
for the rights of aggressors to be free from punishment.32
Indeed, most of Barnett’s concerns regarding punishment are warranted: he
opposes it because he believes it may deter crime less than would a restitutionbased
system, and also because the unavoidable possibility of error can lead to
“infliction of harm on the innocent” (p. 228, emphasis added; also pp. 197, 228).
Like Barnett, I am concerned about the unavoidable possibility of mistakenly
punishing the innocent, and thus admit the appeal of a restitution-based system in
order to avoid punishing innocents. Moreover, Barnett makes a powerful and
original argument for why the standard of proof should be higher if a victim seeks
to punish a purported aggressor rather than merely obtain restitution (p. 212).
Thus, a victim seeking to punish the aggressor must prove guilt beyond a reasonable
doubt, whereas the lower standard of preponderance of the evidence is more
appropriate for a civil trial for damages. It is therefore more costly to seek
punishment than to seek restitution. For this and other reasons, restitution would
probably become the predominant mode of justice in a free society.
Nevertheless, acknowledging (and justifying) the theoretical legitimacy of punishment
can be useful. For example, punishment (or a theory of punishment) may be
utilized to reach a more objective determination of the proper amount of restitution,33
because a serious aggression leads to the right to inflict more severe punishment on
the aggressor, which would thus tend to be traded for a higher average amount of
ransom or restitution than for comparatively minor crimes.34 Especially offended
victims will tend to bargain for a higher ransom; and richer aggressors will tend to be
willing to pay more ransom to avoid the punishment the victim has a right to inflict,
thereby solving the so-called “millionaire” problem faced under a pure restitution
system (where a rich man may commit crimes with impunity, since he can simply
pay easily-affordable restitution after committing the crime).
Moreover, even if punishment is banned (de facto or de jure) and is not an
actual option—because of the possibility of mistakenly punishing innocents,
say—an award of restitution can be based on the model of punishment. To-wit: a
jury could be instructed to award the victim an amount of money it believes he
could bargain for, given all the circumstances, if he could threaten to proportionately
punish the aggressor. This can lead to more just and objective restitution
awards than would result if the jury is simply told to award the amount of damages
it “feels” is “fair.” Barnett nowhere specifies any objective standards or criteria by
which a judge or jury is to determine the amount of restitution a victim is to receive
for a non-economic crime like murder, rape, and the like. He specifies only that the
aggressor must “compensate” the victim for the “harm caused,” to “restore” the
victim (pp. 159, 185). Thus, a retribution-based system, even if used only as a
model to help determine the amount or standard of restitutive damages, supplements
Barnett’s theory of a restitution-based justice system.